From a Reddit spirituality group, in which everyone uses a fake name. Mine is Puzzleheaded. I came into the discussion late.
Maralita
You’re awakening and your significant other is deep asleep. What now?
It’s all in the title. It’s been almost 4 years now. Initially I’ve done the not so advised thing to try to wake up my SO as well. Sharing books, articles, etc. She couldn’t really care much. Then I tried to back up a bit and share my experiences, insights, findings, etc. Some curiosity from her, but not much. Then I introduced her to meditation, not so much stuck outside of the deep breathing exercises, just to fight anxiety.
I don’t know anymore…Life is hard already as it is, and I feel as if I’m considerably slowing down my progress because it’s as if I’m speaking another language to her, and the communication has taken a big hit. Normal when two individuals now have a different frame of reference. I find myself using disclaimers almost 24/7 now, so to make sure I don’t come across as if I know more or better, but it’s exhausting truly.
How do folks have dealt with being on a seeking path and not their partner? Some days I take it as a test to see if I love all unconditionally, no matter whether she’s on a seeking path or not actively, some days I take it as a sign that maybe we have learned what we needed to learn from each other and should move on. (Forgot to mention that we have been unhappy for a while now, problems among us and the universe throwing all kind of tough events on us and our respective families). I ultimately know I have free will and will be fine no matter what, truly. Indecisiveness comes from wondering if breaking up would get me further or closer to my individual path, knowing again that all roads would eventually lead to the truth.
Thanks for chiming in.
ZenMaster
Forgive me ahead of time, as I usually take a hard line on this sort of thing and I have to be very clear and direct. True awakening or attaining any measure of a deeper understanding of things does not cause any problems in relationships or turmoil for any of those close to you, and if it does then you aren't going in the right direction.
True awakening lies in the direction of ego dissolution, not entrenchment; if those around you don't have an interest in matters of spirituality or awakening, this does not make them lesser and one shouldn't press the issue. If you are dissolving the ego in any meaningful way, then all relationships you have should immediately be getting far better, not worse. Oftentimes a partner just needs to be heard and understood, and ego dissolution should make you a great listener instead of a preacher. Preachers are commonplace in this world, while listeners are exceedingly rare.Also, a true spiritual journey is internal, and nothing should ever come out to others about it unless they ask you directly. If you are going in the right direction, as in the direction of ego dissolution and avoiding spiritual materialism, then what you are becoming should be warmly radiant, welcoming and helpful. Or in other words, a buddha shouldn't ever be recognized as a buddha when entering the marketplace with helping hands.
killertreatdev
I disagree, at least specifically with romantic relationships. If One assumes that the partner is aware already, then it would make sense, but this is not always the case. A seeker may have an awakening, and realize that some of their aspects of their personality were toxic, but those parts may have been part of what the partner was attracted to. One may lose interest in material things while the part still values them.
This leads to conflict that is not easily resolved. Just because you have an awakening doesn't mean you instantly learn all these new relationship and communication skills, and the shift in direction the seeker takes can be jarring for a partner and not easy to navigate.
The partner can place a heavy expectation on the seeker and the seeker is met with conflict of internal integrity that cannot easily be resolved. The partner may require the seeker to be someone they are not or do things they no longer wish to do, maybe even require them to not engage with dissolution of their ego, even if they are unaware of the concept. They may fear the change or dislike and resent it.
I stopped having sex with my girlfriend because I realized how dysfunctional my attitudes around sex were. We tried communicating through it, but that had become the primary means of connection in our relationship, and without it we found we were exposed to a large gap that was within us the entire time. We tried closing that gap, and we got very very close, but it just wouldn't connect. We started unraveling our relationship, but the truth was clear that we were no longer aligned and we were now drifting apart.
Ideally, the relationships do get better, because the seeker is more aware and attentive, but the entire burden of the relationship does not rest with the seeker alone. My relationships with my family improved a lot, and I was able to leverage my process to help them as well.
But dissolution of ego does not mean lack of identity, total sacrificing of self, or servitude. To me dissolution of ego brings awareness outside of ego, and recognizes the self as well as the other in a different light. The path then can lead to pacificity in relationships because the seeker sees greater value in self and other when not blinded by ego, and that allows space for greater love, joy, and hopefully warmth, but that doesn't eliminate the dysfunction the other still brings while they are still attached, especially if they see no reason to change.
One may avoid triggers and seek better communication, but it still takes two to fulfill the relationship, and the seeker is valid and worthy of the deeper love they are seeking. One hopes, encourages, asks and invites, but the other is equal in identity and self, and is free to choose their own path, and it is not guaranteed that they will continue down the same path together.For me, there is grief in that, but at the same time a resounding truth, tragic and unbearable, but true, that we are both now closer to our correct paths, and with that I have hope that we may come together more completely again in the future and experience a type of love and connection we weren't ready for now.
thisisnothappenin
"True awakening or attaining any measure of a deeper understanding of things does not cause any problems"
That's not the point. Reaching a deeper understanding of self can only occur via the experience of problems and struggles. These struggles seem external but are in reality a reflection of the inner struggles of holding onto the false ego self. Thus a relationship, via psychological triggers from a partner, is an invaluable tool for helping us to know our true selves, but only if we understand the true purpose of relationships."If you are dissolving the ego in any meaningful way, then all relationships you have should immediately be getting far better, not worse."
This was exactly the type of thinking that the story of Job in the Bible addressed: when Job was experiencing an initiation, all of his friends told him he must be sinning and that he needed to repent. They were wrong.
At multiple steps along one's spiritual journey, the struggles will increase despite spiritual progress. The Greek mythological hero Hercules gives an excellent description of the struggles on the spiritual path, for anyone who can correctly interpret the symbolism.
ZenMaster
You are free to believe as you wish of course, but I've often found that people who cite the Bible as a credible source for argument are usually beyond having good faith conversations. Their subjective beliefs tend to become objective truths in their minds because they are often unknowingly arguing from a position that doesn't require logic or quantifiable evidence.And apparently you don't even know people well enough to realize that only pointing out where someone is wrong in your opinion doen't warm up anyone towards your own arguments and opinions, which I would say is quite revelatory of the efficacy between either of our experiences.
ZenMaster, I have similar experiences with people who quote the Bible, even when I quote it to them. I have similar experience with people who don't quote the Bible, when I quote it to them. I've had lots of experiences with people, who were raised in Bible families, and after that didn't work out for them, they sought help in other spiritual traditions, such as Native American, Sufism, Taoism, Buddhism, Gurjiief, J. Krishnamurti, yogis in India, Theosophy, the New Age, etc. It looked to me that deep inside they all were trying to find a Jesus to help or save them. There is great wisdom in the Bible, despite how people who adhere to it cherry pick which parts they wish to use, and disregard the rest. Clearly, based on what you write here, you have been on the spiritual path a good while. But, how did you decide to call yourself Zen Master, when you tell us here, " a buddha shouldn't ever be recognized as a buddha when entering the marketplace with helping hands"? I think if you had lived in my skin since early 1987, you would know for a fact that God exists, and angels named in the Bible exist, and Lucifer and demons exists, and you might not even hold to Buddhism, or to any religion on this world. I think I recall reading some years ago, that the Buddha said he was not a god and a teacher greater than he would come. I have wondered if that teacher was Jesus, who is reported in the Bible. His way was red hot and really steep, and the religion that claimed him watered him down greatly, I think.
ZenMaster
Since there is no evidence for the existence of such a being, its safe to say that god purely exists in the realm of pure subjective fantasy and not objective reality. Faith in something for which there is no real evidence is merely delusion, and just because someone believes in something strongly doesn't make it any more true in reality.
Not saying that someone can believe as they want to believe of course, but there is a hard line between subjective thoughts and objective reality.
Puzzleheaded
I will try to write more clearly. I once believed God, Jesus, angels named in the Bible, Lucifer, demons, ETs, another beings not recognized by human science, nor by many humans, existed. Note, I said I once believed. My ongoing stranger than fiction, so to speak, experiences since early 1987, ended my belief and replaced it with knowing for a fact such entities exist. Now, I'm not hung up on the word, God, for example. But that is the word I was raised on to describe whatever started everything and is smarter than everything else. I do not dismiss you, because you think all of that is made up. You have lots of company. Nor do I think for a heartbeat that I can persuade you to believe me. If I thought that, then I would be crazy. The Catch-22, is you, nor anyone, can prove God, etc. does not exist. Nor can I prove they do exist. In past times, that was called a Mexican standoff.
I recall reading of the Swiss Psychiatrist Carl Jung being at a party one night, and someone asked him if he believed God exists, Jung looked at the person, said, "I know!"
In 1988, I became friends with a student of Jung's, named Dora Kalff, who was much older than me. She had founded Sandplay Therapy, which she told me her good friend the Dalai Lama had told her was applied Buddhism, after he visited her in her studio on Zolikon, up the lake from Zurich, where she showed him her bookshelves cluttered with miniature objects of any and all kinds, earthly and unearthly, and her dry and wet sandtrays, where her clients unconsciously worked out their issues by making pictures in the sand, while she observed. There was no analysis, no talk therapy. It was all done symbolically, and she, the therapist and witness, was essential for the clients to progress. They could move to where she was, or that was their potential. She kept telling her students, I was married to one of them, that they had to keep doing their own work, because they could not take their clients beyond where they have gone.
When I asked Dora whether she had ever had any experiences with ETs, she said she would answer me iin this way. When the Dalai Lama came to visit her and tell her that Sandply was applied Buddhism, he also asked her what kind of pictures do people make in the sand, who were not born on this planet? Dora looked me in the eye, said, "The Tibetans know many things they do not say." Although she had taken a Tibetan refugee into her home, who turned out to be a lama, who made the introduction for her with the Dalai Lama, she said she viewed herself as an esoteric Christian. She was a mystic. I was becoming a mystic. There is no way to comprehend a mystic, if you are not one. I take no credit for being a mystic. Angels did it to me, as I hung on for dear life, often praying to die and fearing I wouldn't.
thisisnothappenin
You're right: I should not have positioned my opinion as fact.
For the record, the Bible is mythology: there is a difference between taking the stories literally and interpreting the spiritual truths that they represent. To discount the truths in Biblical mythology is the opposite extreme of taking the stories literally; the middle way is to respect the truths therein.My point still stands (with or without Biblical references): external circumstances are in no way a reflection of one's spiritual efforts. Instead, difficult life situations (sometimes called initiations) are an essential part of the spiritual path.
Puzzleheaded
I agree, Killertreatdev. A romantic relationship is very different from being in a retreat, or living in a monastery, or being in meditation. It's a living gestalt, where things can happen suddenly, buttons can be punched dramatically. At some level, a couple are together for reasons they probably cannot fathom. Past lives may be in play. Similar soul wounding might be in play. Maybe no might. Maybe for a fact. Regardless, it's on each couple how they try to get on with it, or end it. Religion has really complicated that by making marriage forever. How long a couple is together should be between them and their version of God. If they are receiving spiritual guidance in dreams, visions, ahas!, about their relationship and other matters in their lives, then that suggests they are in some kind of vessel with beings not of this world, which are trying to help the couple. That is not a theory I heard about or dreamed up. It happened when I was with 5 different women over time. We both were getting input, and I learned it was a lot more difficult for the women, than for me, because of the extreme prejudice against the feminine on this planet.
Puzzleheaded
Maralita, You might wish to consider that you and your SO are together so that you can have your buttons punched frequently by your SO, and you get to decide how handle that each time it happens.
A COURSE IN MIRACLES advises to simply be still and stew in our own juices when our buttons are pushed, without trying to figure out what is going onor trying to do something about it. Different spiritual traditions have taught the same method of spiritual acceleration.
In my journey, I came to call it "paradise mating". I understood that if my SO and I hung in there together long enough, through all of the explosions and separations and comings back together, perhaps we would end up in an entirely different state of being together. However, even if that never came to pass, if I was diligent, I could use the relationship to accelerate me. It was not easy to do that. But I became convinced the process was genuine, because what my SO (there were several SOs in succession) did, was trigger stuff inside of me that needed to be loosened up and allowed to escape, so to speak, where it was hiding inside of me.
As one SO relationship played out, another soon arrived and began. I'm heterosexual, and what I came to see was, each of those women helped something open up in me, which was dormant, I came to view each of those relationships as a lifetime within my overall lifetime this time around. Note also, I speaker from my perspective, and not from those women's perspective.Books were written about paradise mating, one I think was called THE SHARED HEART, by a man living in California (not me). I wrote several novels, in which paradise mating was the central theme.
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